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Your weekly dose of information that keeps you up to date on the latest developments in the field of technology designed to assist people with disabilities and special needs.
Show Notes:
Derek’s Website: www.lifeaftersightloss.com
Link to podcast: www.lifeaftersightloss.com/podcast
See Story: http://bit.ly/2BepEtT
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If you have an AT question, leave us a voice mail at: 317-721-7124 or email tech@eastersealscrossroads.org
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Derek Daniel:
Hi, my name is Derek Daniel from LifeAfterSightLoss.com and I’m the host of the podcast Life After Sight Loss Radio, and this is your Assistive Technology Update.
Josh Anderson:
Hello and welcome to your assistive technology update, a weekly dose of information that keeps you up to date on the latest developments in the field of technology designed to assist individuals with disabilities and special needs. I’m your host, Josh Anderson, with the INDATA Project at Easterseals Crossroads in beautiful Indianapolis, Indiana. Welcome to episode 439 of Assistive Technology Update. It’s scheduled to be released on October 25th, 2019.
Josh Anderson:
On today’s show, for disability employment month, we have Derek Daniel on to talk about his personal job search and just some of the things that kind of come up with that. We also have a story on about a new show coming out on Apple+ TV that involves a future where everyone is visually impaired. Also, before we get into the show, I wanted to talk about a really great event that I got to be a part of last week.
Josh Anderson:
So, here in Indiana, there’s a training institute that helps individuals who want to get into supply chain, so into warehouses, things like that, get the training that they need so that they can go and start these jobs but already know how to do a lot of the tasks. Well, they’ve partnered with our vocational rehabilitation here, but this was an event, not just kind of talking about this business and how it works in training folks, but just in how to hire individuals with disabilities.
Josh Anderson:
Really great panel discussion, a lot of HR managers and other hiring folks were there, and it was just a really cool, really great event to get to meet with these folks. We’d talk with them, show them some of the assistive technology that can help individuals on the job. Sometimes, especially those of us that work in this field, really kind of forget that a lot of this knowledge just is very hard to come by and people don’t know that it’s out there, that it exists, and it was really great to see all these individuals who do the hiring, who are in the HR departments, who are responsible for this every day, learning these things that they can take back to their business, and hopefully open up more opportunities for individuals with disabilities.
Josh Anderson:
So, today, at AT Update, we’re going to take a little trip into the world of entertainment. I found a story by Imran Hussain over at WCCFTech.com and it talks about a new show coming out on Apple TV+. Now, I don’t have an Apple TV so I’m probably maybe not going to actually watch the show, but the show is called See, that’s S-E-E. So, really the reason that I kind of wanted to bring it up is that it’s kind of set in the future, the dystopian kind of future, about 600 years out, and it turns out, there’s only about two million people left on earth. Due to the deadly virus that wiped everyone out, everyone that’s left alive is blind and there’s no working technology. So, if you really kind of think about it, it’s the opposite of this show. It would be an actual world where no one can see but there’s no assistive technology to kind of help out.
Josh Anderson:
Now, this is the first I’ve even heard of the show. I must admit, I don’t keep up on that stuff as much as I would really and truly like to, but I’ll put a link to this story over in the show notes so that you can check it out. But one thing that I really liked when I was reading this was that they did bring consultants onboard to ensure that the blindness was portrayed in the show was based on realism and, also, they hired a lot of actors who were either blind or low-vision to be on the show. So, I feel like that’s very cool that they actually did bring folks in just to make sure they weren’t being jerks about it and also just to bring a bit of realism to a future. So, again, we’ll put a link to that over into the show notes, and maybe whenever that show comes out, if you do watch it, maybe let me know how it is.
Josh Anderson:
So, as we observe October, which is disability and employment month, I thought it was important to bring an individual on who A) is looking for a job, B) uses AT, and C) has a little bit of experience in podcasting. So, our guest today is Derek Daniel and this is not his first time on this show, but we’re very excited to have him back on to talk about some of his experiences with AT, with podcasting, and most importantly, with employment. Well, Derek, welcome to the show!
Derek Daniel:
Hey, glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
Josh Anderson:
Yeah, I can’t wait to talk about you, your experience, and stuff like that, but just to let our listeners know, can you start off by just telling us a little bit about yourself?
Derek Daniel:
Sure. So, I’ve been visually impaired since I was 18 years old. I’m not huh-huh years old. No, I’m in my mid-30s now and I lost my sight to something called Leber’s hereditary optic neuropathy, or LHON for short. It is a genetic disease which affects the optic nerve and it was one of those things I’d never heard of. Actually, I’m adopted so I didn’t even see it coming. Forget the pun.
Derek Daniel:
Yeah, so I’ve been visually impaired for almost 20 years and I have a wonderful wife, whom I’ve been married to, we were high school sweethearts. I have two wonderful kids. All the other stuff will probably come up as we go along, but that’s sort of the basics of me. I live here in Indianapolis and I’m excited to be here and talk to you.
Josh Anderson:
And we’re very excited to talk to you, as well. So, that’s a little bit of your background, just because this is Assistive Technology Update, can you tell us a little bit about the AT that you use on a daily basis?
Derek Daniel:
Absolutely. What don’t I use? So, of course I am an Apple user. Some people out there are cheering, some people are probably booing me right now. I’m an all-Apple user. I have the iPhone, the iPad, the MAC, the Apple watch. If it’s an Apple product, I probably will use it. So, a lot of that stuff, the assistive tech that’s built-in, ZOOM and voiceover and things like that, I do have a CCTV, or desktop magnifier, which I use on my desk to read papers and things like that. I also have a handheld magnifier.
Derek Daniel:
I use sort of low-tech things, as well, like bump dots and Sharpie on a yellow notepad. I use, people wouldn’t call it assistive technology necessarily, but a signature card and stuff like that. So, if there’s a place where I can use assistive tech, basically my motto is, “Well, what do I want to do? Now, how am I going to do it?” That’s kind of the idea of advocacy for myself.
Derek Daniel:
I love technology, I always have. I think it’s really interesting and fascinating, so if I can find a way to help me do it and do it more efficiently, then I’ll probably use it.
Josh Anderson:
I love that you brought up the bump dots, the paper, the Sharpie. Nobody ever thinks of those and just how they definitely work, especially in a pinch.
Derek Daniel:
Oh, yeah, we call it high-tech and low-tech. Like high-tech is the computer, and the magnifiers, and things like that, but low-tech is great. For example, a really good thing I use all the time is a whiteboard. I have a small one, a big one, and I use it to help my kids with math and maybe write a quick note, something like that. That doesn’t seem like assistive technology when people say assistive technology, but it really is something that’s so beneficial and helpful for me in everyday situations, sort of like assistive tech is. So, yeah, that’s part of my technology suite, if you will. It’s just sort of the low-tech side of it.
Josh Anderson:
Oh, definitely, and you also have what I would consider a piece of assistive technology laying at your feet right now.
Derek Daniel:
I do. I have my guide dog. He is a black lab. His name is Koa, K-O-A, which means brave and fearless.
Josh Anderson:
Oh, nice.
Derek Daniel:
It’s a Hawaiian name, so it’s pretty cool. He is from Guide Dogs For the Blind out on the west coast. I went to Boring, Oregon. That’s the name of the city, not the description of the town. Boring, Oregon, and went out there for a couple of weeks recently and came home and he’s been doing fantastic since I’ve been home.
Josh Anderson:
Excellent, excellent. Derek, talking a little bit more, just kind of about technology, what has been the biggest frustration, what’s completely inaccessible and kind of has been for the whole time you’ve been using technology?
Derek Daniel:
Oh, my gosh.
Josh Anderson:
Well, I mean, we only have so much time.
Derek Daniel:
Right. You got two hours? Well, I think the first thing I think of is always anything graphic is always inaccessible, and I understand that to a certain point of view. Graphics are hard to get going there. The one thing that is getting a lot better now is audio description for television and movies. That was always kind of inaccessible but it’s getting better. Video games, they’re trying to work on it, but it’s still kind of iffy. But, yeah, anything that’s graphic is always hard to describe.
Derek Daniel:
One area that is sort of a niche kind of thing but comic books. Comic books are not accessible at all. I know they’ve made some audio comics and things like that, but just the mainstream, go out, pick it up at your comic book store is not very accessible because, well, it’s graphic related. Now, I’m a huge nerd and I just sort of outed myself there, but that’s the thing, those kinds of little niche things.
Derek Daniel:
The big ones, like the MACs, and the Windows, and the computers, they’re getting more accessible. I have a small VIZIO television in my bedroom and it has a screen reader built in. It’s not a great screen reader, but it’s a screen reader, nonetheless. So, some of the big mass products, they’re getting more accessible because people are making a big fuss, but it’s those small niche things that I think are the real issues that people need to take up as a project and really go to town on making those kinds of things accessible.
Josh Anderson:
Oh, for sure. I can only imagine the work that would have to go in, but yeah, if you could just make that, especially with Alt Text, with all these other things that are coming out and becoming a little easier to use and easier to implement. Hopefully maybe comic books is something that will happen on down the road.
Derek Daniel:
Yeah, absolutely, and you mentioned Alt Text, I mean, things like my website, when I put in a picture, now I use WordPress and WordPress has a section there for Alt Text. I get to put in whatever I want, which is so beneficial because then when I go to the website, I can check and say, “Yep, that’s exactly what I wanted on there.” A lot of those things are getting more and more accessible, and I’m looking forward to things changing in the next five years as opposed to the next 20 years. It’s a lot faster.
Josh Anderson:
Oh, yeah. Well, and I know, even making presentations with PowerPoint now, it guesses for you. As a sighted individual and other folks, one of the big challenges was how do I make this successful, how do I get behind the scenes, how do I do all this? Well, now you put a picture in and it pops up and says, “Hey, is this, this?”
Derek Daniel:
Yeah.
Josh Anderson:
And if not, well, you need to tell it what it is.
Derek Daniel:
Right.
Josh Anderson:
And I love that it prompts you to do it. It kind of forces you to put that kind of thing in there, but it also makes it easy, and if you make it easy, more folks are going to do it.
Derek Daniel:
Absolutely. That’s really the key. Make it easy and then they’ll do it.
Josh Anderson:
Exactly. Exactly. So, the real main reason that I had you on today is because October is disability employment month and I know you’re currently searching for employment.
Derek Daniel:
Yes, I am, actually.
Josh Anderson:
So, tell my listeners a little bit about your job search so far.
Derek Daniel:
Well, so to back up, I was in a full-time ministry for over a decade and I resigned from that a few years ago to stay home with the kids for a while and let them, I don’t know, get a routine in with the kids and be a stay-at-home dad. That’s been a lot of fun but now they’re a little older, so now it’s like, oh, I think I’d like to go back to work. Well, I started my search last year and I wasn’t in a big hurry. I’m still not in a huge hurry. Maybe more now than I was before, but it’s not like we’re in a huge hurry to get a job. It’s just something I want to do and get out of the house, make a little extra money to put in the bank and that sort of thing. That’s the reason I started initially looking for a job.
Josh Anderson:
What kind of job are you looking for?
Derek Daniel:
Well, at first I was looking for anything I could get. We’ve talked all the time, my wife and I, and the employment counselor and so forth, it’s kind of like I can’t just run down to McDonald’s and get a job flipping burgers. It’s not quite that easy. Not that I couldn’t work at McDonald’s but you have to think about a lot more things when you go into a job like that. So, while I would totally do that, there are certain things that you narrow it down.
Derek Daniel:
Well, I think, for me, I’m a people person. I’ve got to hang out with people. I can’t work in a factory by myself all day. Some people would love that. They would love to put their headphones in, and listen to music, and be left alone. That would just be heaven on earth to them. For me, I would be like no. Somebody, help me, please. Help me escape this environment. I can’t take it. So, I need to work with people. When I think about jobs, it’s like what kind of interaction am I going to get, whether it’s guests, clients, coworkers, something like that, what kind of interaction can I get?
Derek Daniel:
As far as my job search goes, that was my first real big thing. Other than that, of course I was in ministry so I’m always kind of looking for a ministry job. Then just other things where I can work with people, help people, support people, that sort of thing.
Josh Anderson:
Very good, and you kind of mentioned an employment consultant, job coach. So, you’re working with one of them right now?
Derek Daniel:
Yes, I am, yeah. My employment counselor, whatever her title is-
Josh Anderson:
It’s always changing.
Derek Daniel:
Oh, yeah.
Josh Anderson:
I used to do it and I had five different titles, but it all meant the same thing. You know.
Derek Daniel:
Yeah, she’s been fantastic. She actually works for Easterseals, as a matter of fact.
Josh Anderson:
I promise that was not a plug.
Derek Daniel:
Yeah, no, he is not slipping me $5.00 over the table right now. No, she’s great. In all honesty, she’s been fantastic, very supportive, very encouraging. I actually just got an email from her this morning like, “Hey, how’s this going?” and asked me questions. So, the employment counselor has been wonderful and just very supportive on what do you want to do, what are you looking for and let’s narrow that down.
Josh Anderson:
Excellent, and that’s kind of how they should be. I always said that I made a terrible employment counselor just because if somebody came in and was like, “I want to be a nuclear physicist,” it’s like, all right, let’s figure out how you can be a nuclear physicist. Let’s kind of do that. I guess my placement rate wasn’t really all that great, but luckily in AT you don’t have to do that kind of part quite as much.
Derek Daniel:
Well, you got the right job there.
Josh Anderson:
Yeah, exactly, exactly. In order to kind of work with a job coach and do everything else, you went through vocational rehabilitation.
Derek Daniel:
Yes.
Josh Anderson:
Okay. Tell me a little bit about your experience with vocational rehabilitation.
Derek Daniel:
So, I’ve been working with voc rehab since I lost my sight. I remember when I initially lost my sight, of course it’s like what the heck do you do? We had no idea. I was from a small town and we knew one other blind person who was an old man who lost his sight to macular degeneration, and I was 18 and wanted to live my life. So, one of the things that God connected me with was voc rehab. My initial counselor, he was amazing. He and I both had theater interests and I think he really liked me because I was young and wanted to go do things. So, that got me to college and so forth.
Derek Daniel:
So, I’ve been working with voc rehab for a long time, just in different aspects. Some of it’s good, some of it’s not great. It’s the red tape, as we always say, that you got to go through and the endless cycles of paperwork, and meetings, and conversations. I’ve got to have a conversation then to have a meeting about, then to have… all that sort of thing. So, there are definitely pros and cons to voc rehab. There’s some good things about it and then there’s some things that probably could be worked on, but because of the system, this is kind of how it works right now.
Josh Anderson:
Oh, for sure, and everything needs to be signed in triplicate by four different people and everything else. I know that can be very frustrating.
Derek Daniel:
Yes.
Josh Anderson:
Derek, what are the major barriers that you’ve found in your job search so far?
Derek Daniel:
That’s a good question. I think that whenever you are searching for a job, you always want that perfect, magical position. You know, this was made for me, this is the grand angel-singing kind of position for you and I don’t think that job exists. It’s kind of like finding the perfect cheeseburger. I’m not sure it exists. It’s probably really good cheeseburgers but is this the perfect one? You know.
Josh Anderson:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Derek Daniel:
So, that’s one of the things, you have to kind of… and I don’t mean you have to settle for something, but you have to reign in your expectations, but with vision impairment, I think the hardest thing is telling people and helping them know that you really can do this job. I’ve had jobs, I’ve had a career. I promise I can do this job. And it’s getting past the point of them going, “How are you going to do this?” The reality is most employers just don’t understand. It’s not that they’re mean or harsh, they just don’t understand.
Derek Daniel:
So, when you walk in with a cane or a guide dog or whatever, then they’re like, “Are you going to be able to get around or send an email?” So, you have to educate every single time. When you go in for an interview, you may not get that job, that’s just how interviews work, but you’ve spent 25 minutes educating them on sight loss and how you’re going to do this job, only then to not get the job. It’s not because you’re blind, it’s just because somebody else was more qualified or whatever the case is.
Derek Daniel:
That’s always the question to the back of your mind, did I not get this job because I’m blind? Is this how this works? So, I think those kinds of things have been big barriers. There’s no one thing that’s like this is why I didn’t get this job, necessarily, but I think whenever you are going for a job, sight loss always has that huge barrier in lots of different ways.
Josh Anderson:
You brought up a good point there. I know when I used to be a job coach and I would sometimes go to interviews with individuals, the person doing the interview would talk to me. Even though they’re asking questions of the other individual, as soon as they saw the white cane or noticed they had a vision impairment, they would look at me while talking. The whole time I’m like, “They can hear. They know you’re looking at me.” Sometimes I almost wish they would come out and ask that question, “How can you do this job?” Because they would beat around it because they know that they’re probably not supposed to ask that because of HR reasons. Sometimes I wish they would just come out and ask it so you could be like, “Oh, well, I use this…” If you open up your phone with VoiceOver, put Screen Curtain on, and showed them how you could do everything, they’d probably be like, “Oh, never mind. You’re fine,” and would be able to get right past that question really quickly.
Derek Daniel:
Like you said, it’s sort of that HR code-
Josh Anderson:
Oh, that gray area.
Derek Daniel:
Yeah, don’t say this, you can say this, and I’m just like, “Look, I’m blind. This is the elephant in the room. You wonder if I’m going to be able… let’s just talk about it. Let’s just get it out.”
Derek Daniel:
For example, one of the job interviews I went to, they had me do something in Excel and send an email and so forth, and they were using a Windows computer. I said, “Oh, well, if you do this and you click the plus button, it zooms in,” and they’re like, “Oh, okay! So, yeah, no problem.” It’s just like, yeah, this is not that big a deal. It’s a big deal to them and not at all to me because I do it every day and it’s just like, “Oh, yeah, you don’t think I can send an email. Right, I forgot. Let me show you how I do this.”
Josh Anderson:
Oh, yeah, yeah, and yeah, if you just got that opportunity to just, “Oh, here, I’ll show you,” then suddenly that vision impairment, they’re like, “Oh, well, okay. I guess that’s not a big deal.”
Derek Daniel:
Yeah, and almost most of the time, people just forget after a while. You’re the token blind person for a little while anyway but then they just forget because you do the job, and yeah, you do it differently, maybe, then somebody else, but you’re still doing the job.
Josh Anderson:
You’re still doing the job.
Derek Daniel:
It’s not that big a deal.
Josh Anderson:
Oh, yeah. For sure, for sure. I mean, really as an employer and as somebody who does the hiring process for our positions, sometimes just having somebody who will show up for work, do the job with a smile on their face is really great.
Derek Daniel:
Yeah, absolutely.
Josh Anderson:
Just being able to have that. You brought this up a little bit, but in that perfect world, what is your angels-singing job?
Derek Daniel:
Oh, wow. It’s one of those questions like if you win the lottery-
Josh Anderson:
Oh, yeah. Almost definitely it is like that. The job might not even exist. If you would have told me I would manage an AT program, do an AT podcast, 10 years ago, I didn’t know what AT was. Well, maybe 15, I don’t know, it gets away from me a little bit, but I wouldn’t even have known what it was. I just lucked into starting as a job coach, finding this, and it’s a job that I love and I can’t imagine doing anything else now. But what would be yours if that job coach sent you a job lead and said, “This-
Derek Daniel:
This is it.
Josh Anderson:
… is the one that you’ve been looking for,” what would that be?
Derek Daniel:
It’s less about what the job title would be and more about the quality of the job, the aspects of the job. One, I would love to travel. I think that would be really interesting. Not all the time, but I think I’d like to go different places. As I mentioned earlier, I want to work with people, so I would love to go and meet different people, I would love to be able to public speak. That would be a lot of fun for me. I kind of do that on my podcast. I always say I started a podcast because I like to speak, and I like to hear myself speak, and it seemed like a good combination.
Derek Daniel:
So, I get to do that, but I would love to take that out to actual, tangible people, sitting in a room and talk to them, and that sort of thing. Then beyond that, I would just love to help people, to encourage people, to train, teach, whatever the topic may be, whatever my expertise is depending on the situation, I would love to do that. So, if that job exists… And also, I like technology so I would love to, you know, websites, and audio and video, and that sort of thing. So, that would probably be incorporated in it, as well. So, something performance-based, training-based, and then always with the people, for sure.
Josh Anderson:
You led right into my next question. Tell us about your podcast.
Derek Daniel:
I said enough.
Josh Anderson:
You did. Man, you’re not new to this.
Derek Daniel:
No. So, my podcast, it’s called Life After Sight Loss Radio. It’s basically the title of my website and I threw radio on there because it was a podcast. So, I started the podcast and the website and everything a couple of years ago. I’ve been doing podcasting for about four or five years. This is the first one that’s really sort of stayed and had some staying power, but I started it and it was a solo podcast for probably 75 episodes, and then recently, probably the last nine or ten, my wife has now joined me as a co-host. It’s really nice because she’s sighted and so we have the perspective of me, the VIP, the visually impaired person, and her, as we call, the sighted supporter. So, we can talk about lots of topics and give lots of perspective on those topics from both of us. We sit at a table across from each other and it’s kind of a visual to we’re on different sides of the table but we’re both at the same table talking about these sort of things.
Derek Daniel:
So, we try to have topics that are relevant to people that are losing their sight. That’s sort of the bent of my podcast, and website, and everything is people going through sight loss. Yes, I have people talk to me all the time that have been blind since birth but kind of the main niche is somebody who was sighted and lost their sight. That’s what I went through, that’s what I know, because I was sighted until I was 18, and so that’s kind of what I know. So, the podcast is a longer-form version of topics, and conversation, and that sort of thing.
Josh Anderson:
That’s really good because I know a lot of folks I’ve worked with, especially if you’re working with folks with vision loss, yeah, there’s the folks who have been blind since birth or lost it really young, don’t really remember, and then there’s that I used to do everything this way and now I have to do it differently.
Derek Daniel:
Yeah.
Josh Anderson:
I know there’s a lot of fight-back, I guess, would be a word that I’ve experienced with some folks.
Derek Daniel:
Sure.
Josh Anderson:
There’s depression, there’s other things that just kind of go into that. So, that’s really cool that you kind of give them a forum or some place where they can kind of listen and learn about these kind of things.
Derek Daniel:
Yeah, and there definitely is a level of understanding that takes place and you have to transition. I tried to learn Braille. I still can’t read Braille because it doesn’t look like the letters, and I’m very visual in my mind, and this is weird. On the podcast, we talk about technology but we also talk about, as you mentioned, with depression and sadness and anger, we talk about the emotional turmoil, we talk about how it affects your relationships.
Josh Anderson:
Oh, yeah.
Derek Daniel:
We talk about all the aspects because it’s not just one thing that happens, it’s all the things that take place. So, we try to cover as much as we can on a 30, 40-minute podcast. We try to cover lots of different topics and know that your life is being affected in lots of different ways.
Josh Anderson:
I love that you have the sighted support person on there, too, just to get that kind of feedback and kind of understanding how it affects not just the individual but those around them, as well.
Derek Daniel:
Yeah, and we’ve talked about that. Ever since I’ve started the website, that’s been one of my goals is to make sure it is a thing where we talk about that because their life is changing, too. It’s not just the VIP. Actually, on the podcast coming out next week, we’re talking about relationships with your significant other and one of the things mentioned on there, this is a teaser for the podcast, free plug, everybody, this is one of the things we talked about was how it’s not just my life changing, it’s our life changing. That’s one of the things we always want mention is sighted supporters are going through it, too, and they’ve got a new role, and yada yada yada, all that sort of thing. So, that’s why we definitely like to have that perspective on the podcast.
Josh Anderson:
Well, very cool. I’ve listened to a couple of episodes and it’s very good. I look forward to listening to more. Derek, if our listeners want to actually find the podcast or find out more about you and everything that you’re doing, where would they go?
Derek Daniel:
Oh, that’s really easy. Just go to LifeAfterSightLoss.com. I do have the podcast. I have a YouTube channel, as well. I do have some blog posts on the website and there’s social media links, how to get ahold of me, all that stuff, you can find it all at that one encompassing place, which is LifeAfterSightLoss.com. I will say don’t dictate it because it will give you S-I-T-E, which is not my website.
Josh Anderson:
Oh, got you. Got you.
Derek Daniel:
So, make sure that you type it out, LifeAfterSightLoss.com.
Josh Anderson:
We’ll put a link to that over in the show notes. Well, Derek Daniel, thank you so much for coming on today, talking about your life, your experiences, your podcast, and really everything. I really enjoyed it.
Derek Daniel:
It’s been my pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Josh Anderson:
Do you have a question about Assistive Technology? Do you have a suggestion for someone we should interview on Assistive Technology Update? If you do, call our listener line at 317-721-7124. Shoot us a note on Twitter @INDATAProject or check us out on Facebook. Are you looking for a transcript or show notes? Head on over to our website at www.EastersealsTech.com.
Josh Anderson:
Assistive Technology Update is a proud member of the Accessibility Channel. For more shows like this, plus so much more, head over to AccessibilityChannel.com. The views expressed by our guests are not necessarily that of this host or the INDATA Project. This has been your Assistive Technology Update. I’m Josh Anderson with the INDATA Project at Easterseals Crossroads in Indianapolis, Indiana. Thank you so much for listening and we’ll see you next time.
